How time flies, because believe it or not, it has been 10 years since the release of Beyoncé's Lemonade, one of the most celebrated mainstream albums of the past 10 years, of the 2010s.

In a lot of ways, you could say a pop-timist Bible. Of course, I had very positive thoughts on the album at the time when it dropped, but, this is also a record whose story and context has been ever evolving in Beyoncé's catalogue, which is why I thought it was kind of important to do a bit of an update and do a deeper dive on the record and the context it's taken on since its release.

I also brought on @nosaputyouon to give her perspective on all this as well. So let's get into it. The Lemonade convo:

Anthony Fantano: 10 years of Beyoncé's Lemonade! This album has been out 10 years now at this point, and I loved it when it first came out. My guest @nosaputyouon also enjoyed it a lot from what I know, and I figured, what better time to come together and have a conversation and just have a little reflection on not just what this album sort of meant to us and how it read when we first heard it, but like the ways in which it has aged, grown on us, become reinterpreted in our own minds and the public eye broadly, examine its impact and how it fits into Beyoncé's overall career at this point. Let's just get into it. First off, Nosa, thank you for coming through and making the time.

Nosa: Thank you for having me.

AF: Where to even start with this record? I mean, you know, just to kind of begin here, I think because, a lot of my viewers are being newly kind of introduced to you here on the YouTube channel, what were your first impressions of this record when, it was released originally? And, you know, let's— yeah, let's just kind of start there.

Nosa: Yeah, when Lemonade dropped, I was a teenager, but even then, with what little consciousness I really had to understand the depths of Lemonade, it was such an uncomfortable listen, and even today it still sort of is. When you don't know— the thing about Beyoncé is Beyoncé has been very careful at crafting her image on a public front.

AF: So beautiful.

Nosa: And when you have— right. And when you have an artist at the caliber and sort of pedestal that we put Beyoncé at, and to have her be very upfront about the struggles she's facing with infidelity within her marriage, within her social life. I saw someone who was sort of crowned like royalty break down emotionally. And when you listen to songs like "Sandcastles," even "Forward," which is such a short track but still very emotionally depth, it was very uncomfortable to see someone who you could— who you put on a pedestal, but you could still somewhat relate to in that aspect. Even if I wasn't really in that sort of realm at that time as a teen, now 10 years later when I have experienced all those sort of things, it's odd that I can relate to Beyoncé in that front.

AF: When I first heard it, and, you know, obviously anybody can go back to the review, obviously, I was blown away by kind of the depth of how personal the writing was and the storytelling overall. But returning to the album, moments like that are, like, very difficult listens. As good as like the songwriting on "Sandcastles" is, as beautiful as the vocal chemistry is between James Blake and Beyoncé, if I remember correctly, like, I thought it kind of funny how much James kind of takes the reins on that track. But like listening to it and revisiting it more in the context of the album, it does feel like such an essential part to the overall emotional resolution of the record.

And maybe, you know, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself a little bit jumping into it so quickly. But, you know, you did bring it up. This is— I'll put this at your feet. This is kind of your fault. But still, like, kind of taking that element of the record at this point, 10 years on, like, how do you feel about, I think, this very kind of key and pivotal moment in the tracklist where Beyoncé is like kind of coming to grips in a way with the cheating, with the infidelity, with the betrayal?

Because how I sort of read it and how it kind of sits for me is like we're not really getting a whole lot of details in terms of like how we're smoothing this over, fixing this per se. We're just kind of like gritting and bearing it and we're just moving forward and we're just going to continue as if like, you know, 'People need to behave and start actually being real with each other and being consistent and stop the lying and stop this, but we're just going to roll on and just allow time to heal this wound.' How does that message sit for you? Or is that how you interpret it?

Nosa: I think that for— Well, first of all, with the first half or three-quarters of the album, I thought this was Beyoncé announcing her divorce from Jay-Z.

AF: For a good part of it, it does feel like that.

Nosa: Yeah. I think that's where I thought the album was leaning. And I thought the— what was supposed to be "Formation," the end closure, I thought that was her saying, you know, 'I'm now single. Like, this is my new life.' But when you go into "Forward," you realize that it's actually more so her finding resolution with what had occurred and trying to find a new way to see her life a little bit differently. And then I think that the second last track, or the third last, "All Night," was a really more like exemplified version of that. Like, even though all these things happened in our relationship and even though we've gone through all this turmoil, at the end of the day, I still choose you. And that was her choice, you know, like whether the public or her sister or anybody really agrees with what she chose for herself, her family, her relationship. It was her choice to move forward with that relationship, and it seems that she's better now for it.

AF: Yeah, to your point on "Sandcastles," as angry and as unhappy as some passages of that song are in their writing, there still is that line when she's like, "I can't erase you. No matter how angry I'm getting, no matter how many pictures I'm ripping up or whatever, it just can't happen." And in your view, and I still kind of see this sentiment today when people talk about the record or talk about Beyoncé, talk about her new music or talk about Jay-Z, there is still kind of like that lingering sentiment I see from, I don't know if you could just say they're fans, who are like, "How is she still with him after that record, after all the anger?"

It still sort of seems like even with those resolutions that I think to a degree you do have to really kind of read into to kind of like fully get them because the angry parts of the record, the parts where she's really kind of harping on the betrayal here do sound so loud, and are some of the biggest moments on the record. Still, like, I think a lot of people came away from the record to this day feeling like, "This is ridiculous. How are we still at this point where we're in this relationship?" Do you think this is like kind of a justified feeling that the record didn't fully sort of like answer that question or resolve these things in the eyes of the listener, or are some people not listening closely enough?

Nosa: Lemonade is a very ambiguous album, you know? The line between autobiography and art is very blurred within Lemonade. Beyoncé doesn't do interviews. She doesn't explain herself. This is really the first time in an album where she's went from art to confessional, like real pouring herself out. Though I don't think that art needs to be explained further, it's up to interpretation. I can definitely understand why a listener is like, 'okay, but why are you still here? What actually happened? Where's the part 2? Where's the sequel?' I think that— I think that the answer is there. Like you said, the part of "Sandcastles" where she says, 'I can't erase you. I— like, I'm really stuck with this option. Not necessarily stuck, but this is what I've chosen for myself, my family, my marriage, and this is what seems the best for me,' I think that was resolution enough. But yeah, that's kind of where I kind of stand with Lemonade and with the album specifically. I think the beauty about art also is that it's up for interpretation. So what Beyoncé thinks, what I think, what even you think might not all be the exact same, but that's the beauty within it.

AF: No, for sure. Do you think at all though, it's not a sequel obviously, but, is there anything about sort of like, you know, the story of this album, Beyoncé's personal life, Jay-Z's personal life, their relationship together that you feel like is answered or added to or further contextualized in a way that kind of makes you feel any type of way about this album, enhances this album in any way with the release of 4:44 and everything that Jay-Z said on that? Obviously, there's lots of tracks on there that don't directly deal in their relationship at all, but there's like plenty of kind of mea culpa moments to be had and spots where Jay-Z is kind of like reckoning with his own flaws and shortcomings.

Nosa: I think it was definitely a nice crossover, even though that album is not fully like, 'here's why I cheated, this is my infidelity story,' similar to Lemonade. I think that Jay-Z took 4:44 as an opportunity to say, 'at this age that I'm at now, this is my own truth.' Lemonade was Beyoncé's truth. Jay-Z had his truth with 4:44, especially with "Family Feud," the title track, etc. I don't think that Jay-Z necessarily went into depth the way that Beyoncé did, however. And I still feel like there was sort of this like wall that Jay-Z put up at times with his album and with his so-called confessionals. It didn't really feel like the heartbreak and genuine, like, crawl, skin-crawl feeling I felt when I was listening to Lemonade. I didn't necessarily feel that with 4:44, maybe because he was the perpetrator, but I mean, that's just how I personally feel.

AF: Yeah, he's not really kind of, you know, and again, Beyoncé in this dynamic is the more sympathetic figure, but he's like not really putting— he's not really putting the listener in his shoes in the way Beyoncé was on Lemonade. I mean, literally to the point where— and this is another aspect I think I appreciate more of the album in retrospect— there are so many tracks on this record, and feel free to echo or disagree with this, there's so many tracks that to me feel less like songs and more like— and this probably plays into the HBO visuals and everything that she was doing on that side because that enhances the concept a lot too, and we haven't even gotten into that yet— less like songs and more like motifs and more like scenes, you know, especially like the first few tracks with the production being as minimal as it is.

Like, I feel like I'm hearing again sort of like a visual scene where there's characters enacting or sort of like living through a moment. And a lot of these tracks like individually feel like they are less kind of laying out a really literal story and more kind of like playing through almost like a 'seven stages of grief' kind of progression where each song is her trying to depict a particular feeling. And each song focuses on that feeling really hard as it kind of ranges from confusion and insecurity to all-out rage. And then sort of like this element of kind of forgiveness or seeing the forest for the trees in terms of the overall value of the relationship, how it sits with respect to this one moment where I think in the grander scheme of things, maybe she sees it as kind of like a speed bump or something.

Nosa: You know, you're— I 100% agree with you on that. I've always mimicked Lemonade as a much longer and thought-out version of Erykah Badu's "Green Eyes" and that 10-track song or that 10-minute song that is now turned into like an almost hour-long album in Beyoncé's version where she's going through all these different emotions that you feel when you're heartbroken and you are undecided on what you want to do with your life. And that's really what you get in the first three quarters or half of the album is where she really battles with confusion, heartbreak, and in other words, like an actual real loss and anger in her life. And then she sort of moves towards a resolution because at some point you can't really leave it in an empty or angry state. You need to find some sort of way to move forward. And that's sort of what she did with this album.

AF: Are there any tracks, or maybe is there a particular track that sort of, when you go back to this record, hits the hardest because you feel like you identify with it the most or resonates with you sort of in terms of an experience that you've had or something that kind of just lingers with you?

Nosa: Maybe not like experience, but like, "Don't Hurt Yourself." Though I don't love Jack White necessarily on this track, I think that the emotion that she evoked and the rage that I could feel through my headphones hits every single time I hear that song. It's— she exemplified rage, anger, disappointment perfectly with that song.

AF: Yeah, Beyoncé's performance on that track is incredible in terms of just how pissed she sounds. But also, I do agree. I think, like, maybe one kind of thing about the record in retrospect that does still feel weird at points is, like, how much— and obviously she's, like, the director and the auteur of the record, you know? It's like, people wouldn't be on this album if it was not for Beyoncé giving all of it the green light. But sometimes it does feel like her guests, like, maybe take up a little bit too much space on such a personal record, especially during moments when, like, you know, lines like "love God herself," you kind of feel like you want to hear Beyoncé rocking that part of the track.

Nosa: Yes. Yes. 100%. Right.

AF: Like, it would hit a little bit harder if Beyoncé was doing that bit, though I get sort of like the purpose of the line and like what it's trying to get across. I would say my own personal answer to that question, and it's really like, I think one of the more important kind of full circle moments on the record has to be like "Daddy Lessons." Even if I'm not like super crazy about the country-fried direction the production takes there. I love what Beyoncé is kind of like saying in terms of the shortcomings of, I think, this like older style of parenting, this kind of like, 'Do as I say, not as I do,' kind of thing, where you're trying to parent purely out of fear and sort of you're not going to address your own traumas and your own problems and your own shortcomings. In fact, they're like there for your kids to see. And rather than trying to lead by example, you're going to, again, like beat or scare out of your kids, like, 'don't have anything to do with anyone who's anything like me,' you know? And oftentimes you see that that causes your kids to run directly to that person who's like, essentially a clone of you. And I think that's like such a great sort of like point the album makes that often goes overlooked and sort of like, I think a lot of people just kind of read the track as like, oh, this is like a tribute to my dad when it's like, it sort of is, but it's also sort of not.

Nosa: Yeah, I think that track is— it's very pivotal. And I love the placement of where that track is in the album as well, because it really addresses sort of like how generational heartbreak, trauma, etc., can be passed down through lineage, where you have parenting styles that, you say, 'I'm never going to be like my father. I could never be like this. I could never marry someone like my father.' And then you end up doing exactly that.

AF: No, exactly. It's something that obviously, you know, hits really hard again for me personally, which is why I bring it up. But I also kind of wanted to ask you with the flow of the record and "6 Inch," which is also like, you know, I think one of the biggest banger type tracks on the record. I wanted to know if you have personally had like an interpretation. I don't know if this is like something about the track kind of flowing into "Daddy Lessons," but there is that that part at the end of the song that always kind of sticks out to me where she's very quietly kind of crying out, "Come back, come back, come back." What do you feel like that relates to? Is that something that you feel like is kind of bringing on the emotion of the next song, or is that something that's happening within sort of the context of that song purely?

Nosa: So it's interesting that you bring up "6 Inch" because— and this might be an unpopular opinion, but it's my least favorite song on Lemonade. I'm not the biggest fan of The Weeknd's placement on this song, even though it is very Weeknd-coded. Probably why I don't love it as much. But I think that "6 Inch" was really like— it felt like kind of like a dagger to me, in terms of where she was at emotionally with this song, and then moving into "Daddy Lessons," like her trying to sort of address the wound that she was facing with the previous songs.

AF: "6 Inch" is a really sort of like— it's an odd bird on the record for a lot of different reasons, especially in retrospect. I would argue it's maybe the track on the record that has aged the weirdest because it does feel like it's sort of a product of a very sort of specific time in pop music, you know? It was like everything else here feels like it could more or less be released today and nobody would be like, "Oh, that, you know, that this sounds like, uh, it's, it's kind of like from 10 years ago," you know, that, that's the one track on the record that feels like it's from a different time, when, you know, this kind of moody fusion of pop and trap and R&B was like all over the place and you really couldn't escape it. But I still think it does kind of fit, at least, the character portrait of the time, because when it comes to stripper anthems, that's how they all sounded, in 2015, 2016.

And in one respect, that's what the song obviously is. But when you take it in the greater context of the record, I think, and again, speak to this if you agree or disagree, it sort of feels like it's trying to make a broader commentary on, 'after all of this, I have to find some sort of way to pick up the pieces and once again sort of achieve–' maybe it's a fake it till you make it kind of thing, but like this vision or this station of, "I have to be this powerful sexual being that's sort of like being worshipped and sort of like viewed on a pedestal in a way. And how do I get back to that?" And then sort of you have the bridge moment toward the end of the track where it's like, you know, you kind of get on the inside of that and you realize that like, despite what this person does on the stage and the view that everybody holds of them, they're actually suffering inside and like crying all the time with like, you know, a bit of a— I would say a side dish of like, 'hey, you got to grind, you got to grind from this day to this day, and so on and so forth,' which I feel like is done maybe a little bit out of obligation, but still.

Nosa: Yeah. And that's really what I meant when I said it was her really fighting the dagger to the heart, the wound internally, where Beyoncé has done so much work at protecting her image, even very early on in her career, the way that she has molded herself into being like this sort of like royalty figure in media, it's very fascinating. It's very impressive as well. But when you have such personal battles really affecting how you portray yourself and how you go out and present, it will affect you on the outside as well as the inside. You can see that wound sort of get bigger throughout the album and then start to scab over near the latter half. The way that Beyoncé has presented herself and when she performs, it has to be top-notch every single time. The way that she does her dances, her performances, her singing, it's very particular. And then when you have these internal battles, that obviously affects it.

AF: No, it's true. And the thing is, I don't want anyone to read this as necessarily a criticism of Beyoncé herself or a mark against the album's quality, but the more that I sit with it and the more I reflect with it and the more I look at the progression of the record, it does sort of feel like— and I feel like in a way this does almost make the album more relatable because this is a lot of people's coping mechanism. It sort of feels like the solution is to like, 'we just have to go through it and we just have to survive through it and thrive through it.' And like, you know, not– this record, as much as I do appreciate how personal it is, it does not feel like a, 'we're pulling up the floorboards' kind of album and we're like, 'laying all of it out there and we're dissecting all of it and figuring out the problems.' It feels more like, 'no, we're just like putting another layer of subfloor over this.'

Nosa: Yes.

AF: You know? And just kind of hoping the house doesn't collapse upon itself. And that's what a lot of people do. A lot of people do that, you know. In a way, I don't want to use the word 'assuring,' but it's interesting to sort of see that somebody even at that level of popularity and success and resources and everything, still has that same sort of like skill set to work with as your average person. Because that, again, that's what a lot of people are sort of forced to do.

Nosa: Yeah, 100%. And I think that— I'm not sure if we're really at the point where we want to talk about "Freedom," but I think that really plays into my feelings of freedom as well and how I feel that that song— people really turned it into like a political song, rightfully so, I guess. But I think that Beyoncé's lyrics were intentionally sort of generic and not very pinpointed down to being very, very political so that multiple people that could relate to it and pull from it in different ways and really just say, 'okay, now that I'm— now that I'm past this era of my life, I'm really sort of free. I'm moving on. Like, I'm sort of done with anything that happened in the past.'

AF: Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's true. The song is kind of framed, and even I myself, like, you know, read it as a track that's obviously like trying to— and, and, you know, given the political dynamics at the time. It's a track that's very easy to read, and with the Kendrick feature too, as like, 'okay, this is just her making sort of a political statement,' but without sort of leaning too hard into any specific thing, just like on "America's Got a Problem." Because she is somebody who is careful about what she puts out there.

But simultaneously, within the context of the record, this song sort of adds to that sadness in a way that I was talking about, because while, you know, you do have what sort of feels like somewhat of a resolution on the relationship side in terms of like, 'we're just going to get things back on track and sort of see where it goes from there,' And you sort of have this assurance of like, 'yes, things will get good again, so long as you stop fucking up and there's enough time in between these moments to kind of like just feel regular, feel normal again.' The demand, that sort of like longing for that cry for freedom on that track is never really answered. It's just, it's asked for, and we never really get the sense of whether or not it's gotten, you know, at least in a personal sense.

Nosa: Yes. Oh yeah, 100%. That is exactly how the song plays out, which I find interesting because then we move on to "Formation," which I personally think is like the perfect closure. It reads to me very similar to "Compton" by Kendrick and Dr. Dre as the closure for good kid, m.A.A.d city, where I can see the end credits rolling as that song plays out, you know? But it is sort of confusing when I first heard it, as we move from everything that happened with "Freedom," "All Night," and then we move into "Formation," where it's like, okay, did you fix the problem or not? Sort of, if that makes sense to you.

AF: No, it does make sense to me. It sort of feels like "Formation" is such a great track for a lot of different reasons. Like, not only does it have some of the catchiest lines on the record, some of the most fun production on the record and it's one of the songs that I think like has really– whose popularity is held super strong since the release of this album. Like you said, it does sort of serve as that credits roll moment, but simultaneously, it sort of further sort of like solidifies and confirms that sense, like we're going back to regularly scheduled programming now. Like, this is the Beyoncé you sort of came to know and love. This is sort of Beyoncé that you came to this record for. And it's like one of the few tracks on the album you could actually play and enjoy outside of the context of the album without being reminded of the whole story and having to sort of go through, you know, the reminder of like, 'man, oh, all this terrible shit came up on this record,' and have to sort of, you know, re-traumatize yourself with it. You know, 'Formation' is just like a fun, easy track to kind of enjoy and put on and it's— I think it's put at the very end for a reason.

Nosa: No, I, I 100% agree with it. I always get a little bit dismayed a bit with "Formation" because as, as much of it as it is a banger, as great as the song is, I get confused because it's like, 'okay, how have you settled things in your relationship? And how does this fit in the context of the album? Are you—' because the way that we've talked in the past 20 minutes about how she has sort of buried everything under the hatchet, she's sort of rolled over the conversation. But then "Formation" feels like, 'I'm sort of this big dog. I now run this relationship. I'm like, everything that I sort of say goes,' in the concept of, 'you're not messing with me anymore. I am now like big dog.' But that's not sort of how the album ended for me. It sort of ended with her feeling very complacent with the situation and her just sort of being like, like, 'okay, this happened, this sucks for me, but I still choose you.' So to then move into "Formation" was like, oh, maybe there is something I'm missing. Maybe there's a situation that you didn't really touch on in the album that I'm not— us listeners are not aware of. But that's sort of how the song plays for me.

AF: Yeah, no, I fully agree with everything that you're saying. Like, we're not getting a full picture of the way all of this was kind of smoothed over, and– which I think rings a little bit louder when you're talking about a figure like Beyoncé, whose public life is so carefully crafted and orchestrated in terms of what actually makes it out into the public eye. 10 years on, do you feel like those rightful lingering questions and bits of confusion, because this album doesn't answer everything and display all of the facts of the situation, do you feel like this record has sort of like, in the grander scheme of things, worked more against Beyoncé's favor than for it? Like, does the way that it's maybe altered some people's perception of her public image, does that outweigh the quality of the work? Like, obviously, you know, we can look at the music in a way objectively and say this adds to her catalog in a very positive way overall. Like, it's a net positive to her artistry and to her overall catalog. But simultaneously, with putting that in her discography, does her public image take a hit that's sort of difficult to resolve?

Nosa: I think, yes, her public image did take a demise in this aspect, but I think that this album very much humanized her. I think for a lot of people, Beyoncé was unattainable, unreachable, almost like not a real person for a lot of people, even to celebrities alike. You would see Beyoncé and they you know, freak. Even today, they still do. But I think that Lemonade really brought that emotional side to say, 'you know, I am actually a human. I am real. I make music, but I am still just a woman in a relationship with children. And this happens to many women alike.'

AF: No, it's true. Like you say, I echo the whole humanizing thing. And another thing that I really love about this album that I feel like has really kind of added to the quality of her work overall is I feel like it really sort of opened the floodgates and kind of gave her the encouragement and go-ahead to just be like, 'get as conceptual as you want with each album.' You know what I mean? Like, really drill down on an idea. Because I love the hell out of Renaissance. I think it's one of the best pop records of the decade so far. And I think it's one of her best albums, period. I know there's a lot of people that prefer Lemonade just for the story and the concept and kind of the personal element of it. But just as a music fan, the way that record so effectively tributes dance music, I think it's just like amazing, you know, the way it sort of like touches down on so many different eras and elements and aspects.

And, you know, people can debate. I mean, I think like it's pretty widely agreed upon that as a tribute to country music, Cowboy Carter is not as good as Renaissance, but it's still a really admirable effort in terms of what she was trying to achieve on that record. And you could even argue that the cultural splash the record had and kind of the conversation that it all made us collectively engage in, in terms of, 'what are the boundaries between country music and popular music? And what genres are sort of broadly agreed upon as being areas of music that white people can participate in, Black people can participate in?' I feel like is something that we needed to— and is still not fixed or addressed or anything, but Beyoncé opened up the Pandora's box and kind of forced people to kind of look at that question in a way that I feel like we hadn't quite up until this point.

Nosa: Yeah. And I think she also opened the floodgates of allowing mainstream artists to tap into different genres, tap into different sounds, and not be complacent like some other artists like to be in just one type of sound that their fans are expecting them to partake in.

AF: Before we started recording, this is something that we were actually talking about a little bit because I feel like this is one of the last records to reach this level of mainstream popularity. And correct me if there are examples that you feel like come to mind immediately, one of the last albums to sort of like come from the mainstream from this era that seemed like purposefully it was engineered to have a little bit of something for everybody. Because these days I feel like a lot of the more mainstream artists out there, with the way streaming has sort of like, you know, narrowed people's listening diets down and algorithms and so on and so forth, it sort of seems like every artist is more or less incentivized just to play directly to the audience members of theirs that are going to stream their records the most obsessively, and that's it. I can give someone like Sabrina Carpenter kudos for touching down a little bit on like pop music, country, doing a little bit of like several different things. But I can't name a whole lot of albums that have been as big as Lemonade in the past 10 years that are really as diverse, genre-wise, and really kind of touching down on a little bit of everything and doing all of it pretty well.

Nosa: Yes. Yeah. I 100% agree. And yeah, we were talking about how mainstream artists, it really is a numbers game to them. And for the labels that want to invest in their music. I think that it's hard for an artist to branch out into a different genre if people aren't going to listen to it, especially if you're not going to do it well, or if you're really experimenting with that sound. It's hard for them to really dive into that aspect of their music.

AF: No, it's true. Even with this not being maybe as much an element in mainstream music that has panned out into a bunch of other albums that we can like, kind of point to that have dropped recently, are there other sort of like bits of influence or long-lasting effects that you feel like Lemonade has had that you think show up on other albums that are like dropping today or in the last few years?

Nosa: I think that Lemonade really impacted Adele's latest album. Was it 30? I think that that confessional is very similar in terms of songs like, "To Be Loved," and all those beautiful tracks that Adele gave us in the midst of her divorcing from her husband. I think that Lemonade really opened the floodgates of a mainstream artist being honest and real within their music and allowing that to see how that can also get numbers, seeing how that can also become, an anthem like "Formation" or "Hold Up" or "Sorry," but also be emotional, like ballad songs like "Sandcastles."

AF: Yeah, I think the record definitely did at least help normalize the idea that artists can get a little bit more personal with their work in the streaming era. Not have every single song desperate for some kind of hit potential or mainstream appeal, but still have the album overall be a commercial and cultural success. Beyoncé very much comes from an era of the music industry where the limitations on what you could put on a record, everything was combed through by the label and made sure that each song had most potential to make some kind of motion or movement. And Beyoncé was sort of like the power and influence and sort of veteran status she had attained by that point in 2016, I feel like really kind of led the way and showed other artists of her size or maybe even like a smaller fraction or so, kind of giving them the idea and encouragement that like, no, you can leverage your fame and your success and your popularity a little in the studio and just kind of do what you want so long as it comes from a real place. You don't need to sort of craft your records as if you're playing to a 2003 radio audience. It's a new era now and people are digesting music in a different way.

Nosa: Yeah, I definitely agree. And I also think that in this— I think that Lemonade, even though songs such as "6 Inch" feel very 2016, I think that it was also very forward-thinking, which I don't necessarily think is where we're at currently in this decade with forward-thinking music. I, in fact, think it's quite the opposite in terms of, you know, going back into like nostalgic music instead of trying to find what is our definitive sound within the 2020s. But I still think that Lemonade is a standard of what an album can be. Whether that's conceptually or popularly. I think that either way it still was a standard of music.

AF: No, I, I don't disagree with that sentiment. I don't feel like the current era of popular music like mirrors what Lemonade was doing at all instrumentally. Like, we really do feel like we're living through a bit of a nostalgia era at the moment. I feel like a lot of music fans are kind of like veering between nostalgia or nihilism–

Nosa: Which I also don't think is necessarily the artist's fault. I—not to get—

AF: it's like what audience— it's like what audiences are thinking, right?

Nosa: 'What happened to R&B? Is not the same anymore. So like, what happened to like all the ballads? What happened to this? What happened to that?' So an artist is really just catering to what the listener is talking about.

AF: Yeah. And pop music too, with all the sort of like, you know, dance pop and EDM aesthetics of the 2000s kind of coming back. But simultaneously, as much as I feel that way, I still think if Beyoncé put out Lemonade today, I still think it would hit. I still think it would stand out as a unique album. I still think it would do really well. I think people would still resonate with it somehow. And, you know, sometimes there are records, I would say like To Pimp a Butterfly is an example of an album, that I think the world of. It had a lot of mainstream success. There's a lot of amazing elements of it that I think make it timeless. But simultaneously, there's— and again, I can't sort of like delineate what makes an album have this quality or doesn't— but there's just like some records or artists or songs that sort of set kind of a rubric that a lot of people immediately copy and Xerox and make little versions of over and over and over and over.

I think Travis Scott is an example of one of those artists. When he kind of formulated that psychedelic wavy kind of immersive trap sound that he did on Rodeo and Astroworld, you heard that song, you heard that sound everywhere for years. And as big as Lemonade is, I mean, you can't say Beyoncé is like in comparison to Travis Scott, like a minuscule obscure artist or anything like that, but there's just something about Lemonade that can't be copied, you know? And there's just like something about TPAB that can't be copied. There's just something about the emotion and the aesthetics of these records. And there are other albums too that we could sort of cite examples of, but you could throw one out there if you want. But it's like, there's just something about it that's singular, you know? And it's just not gonna be repeated. Maybe by another once-in-a-blue-moon artist, like 20 years later down the road or something. But like, there's something about it in the immediate moment that's like not replicable.

Nosa: Mm-hmm. Like, I think that anybody could make a jazz rap album, but you're not going to do it the same way that you did To Pimp a Butterfly. Same way you can make a genre-defying album like Lemonade, but not to the likeness and to the standard that is Lemonade.

AF: No, it's true. Before we head out, are there any sort of final thoughts or things about this album that you've come to appreciate more now that you sort of had more time with it, or things that you realized about it that you didn't initially when you first heard it?

Nosa: Maybe not– I think a standout for me still is the visuals of the album. I think that—

AF: Yeah, sorry, which we, which we barely gotten into it.

Nosa: We barely got to, but like, I think they're still very important. The visuals, you got an honest Beyoncé, you had an emotional Beyoncé, like I still to this day, whenever I see Beyoncé with that bat, I think it's such a beautiful aspect to really just humanize herself again. Like, this was Beyoncé really putting down her crown for a second and saying, 'I'm really just like any other woman who has gone through such an emotional battle or any type of aspect.' The visuals were just as to the standard of this album musically, the visuals were also there as well.

AF: Yeah, I mean, specifically that element of it, prior to that point, I— anybody who grew up listening to Beyoncé, and even somebody who came to her as a teenager with this record like you did, given the way she had sort of like delivered herself to the public, I don't think anybody— even though it's obviously like, acted out and it's for the sake of like, music video components of the record, I don't think anybody in their wildest dreams could even imagine Beyoncé doing anything within the realm of, like, 'crashing out,' you know?

Nosa: Yes.

It's just not something you could even think Beyoncé would do. But her sort of, embracing the idea of doing that, you can have these kind of, hotheaded moments, and everybody has them, it says something. Moving beyond that though, it's kind of a— what I want to do is I want to ask you, if there's anything else about the visuals that add to the quality of the album for you. But also on top of it, that's almost another quality about the record that people were obsessed with and talking about as if it was this new frontier for popular music and mainstream music, but has also kind of like proven to be another element of the album that has been unreplicable, you know? It's like another element of the album that stands as specific to it, even though I think Beyoncé opened the door in a way and wrote a blueprint where it's like, 'you guys can try this too.' And yet, like, just people have not been ambitious enough to do it.

Nosa: Yeah, it's very hard to make like a conceptual album and a conceptual video to match the album to that same caliber. Beyoncé basically made a movie for her album, and I haven't seen someone do it just to the way that Beyoncé had since—

AF: Yeah, to the level of quality—

Nosa: Thriller by Michael Jackson, you know. It was, it was deliberate, and I think it was very important for her to do that with Lemonade specifically. I also think that it, it hasn't been replicated in the past 10 years. In fact, I think that music videos have really switched recently, and I want to say the past like three, four years, music videos are just not to the standard that I would like them to be. We are getting like one-shot, one-scene music videos in just one room with more like visualizers. I find that music videos are, if anything, which I personally thought that Lemonade would set the caliber, the standard of, 'no, this is what a music video should be, this is what visuals should be for an album.' But I think that we're kind of backtracking a little bit with this decade, or maybe rewiring what we want the standard to be.

AF: Yeah, no, I mean, you know, let's continue down this road even though we're like, you know, getting a little further away from Lemonade, but I think it's an essential part of the conversation. I do think music videos right now are in the woods a little bit for a lot of different reasons. I mean one, the youngest music fans are always going to in a very big way sort of like dictate the shape of the music industry because that's where the hungriest music listeners are, among the youth. And we're currently experiencing an era of the music industry where the youth did not grow up on MTV. So they've probably grown up on like Lyrical Lemonade videos and an earlier era of music videos on YouTube. So it's like the rubric for what was once the music video is not being worked from for like how the '80s and '90s defined it, it's like a new frontier in a way. And adding on top of that, the way we become such a visual culture.

And like you say, it's like there's been this incentive for visualizers to, not be the replacement for the music video entirely, but to be put out there prematurely in lieu of a music video, just sort of like get people a little more engaged because people can't stand to even just have the stimulation of just a song playing. There has to be something else going on too to sort of like keeping it engaging. And then on top of that, you recently had decisions made with like, YouTube pulling its reporting from Billboard because they didn't like the fact that their streams and people's clicks on certain videos and stuff weren't counting as much as like a Spotify stream. So they're like, fuck it, you know? And as a result, of course, like a lot of labels and artists are going to see there being less incentive to doing the music video or investing purely in the music video to get people engaged and excited. And, it's not to say that people aren't trying or making attempts.

Drake with all his Iceman episodes is certainly an example of an artist trying to have like a visual rollout of sorts. But like, him kind of hanging around near ice blocks and having a weird little Pinocchio guy run around in very various places is like laughable in comparison to what Beyoncé did on Lemonade.

Nosa: Yeah, yeah, no, you're, you're 100% right in that aspect. I think that social media is also a really big aspect for that, and the popular short form reel and the short form video. So I, I do think that it's as much as it is the artist, it is also the consumer just playing into what is trendy at the time.

AF: Right. No, for sure. Well, again, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this album. Was really excited to have an excuse to put it on again after a while and kind of dive back into it and just get into the convo with you. And yeah, I just love how much we were on the same page with this one. So, Nosaputyouon, thank you very much again for coming through and talking with me about Lemonade.

Nosa: Thank you so much, Anthony, for having me.